Communism thread NOT a total train wreck; news at 11

May 8, 2004 2:07 PM

Could have been a total train wreck. Wasn't. But in an almost http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/32975#667562">bizarro twist, the thread brought out all kinds of insights into the problems of not only communism but general ideologies systems of political power. We did good.
posted by namespan to Etiquette/Policy at 2:07 PM (37 comments total)

academia exists to keep ideas alive, the post about kerala, MzB's reflections on post-Ceausescu hopes and events, riviera's notes on communism and industrialization, skoosh's comment, and a dozen others opened my mind to new thoughts.

And best of all, we didn't turn out to be a bunch of commie supporting pigs. Although apparently most of us still don't like McCarthy.
posted by namespan at 2:08 PM on May 8, 2004

You're only encouraging 111 to try harder next time.
posted by Mayor Curley at 2:36 PM on May 8, 2004

And apparently I still suck at hyperlinking.
posted by namespan at 2:42 PM on May 8, 2004

A fruity, mellow thread that improves with age. Enjoy with venison, pasta, and popular revolution.
posted by Jimbob at 3:40 PM on May 8, 2004

Did somebody mention dinner?
posted by languagehat at 3:47 PM on May 8, 2004

Let a thousand users post!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:12 PM on May 8, 2004

And apparently I still suck at hyperlinking.

nothing wrong with your hyperlinking, it's your bizarro previewing that sucks!

:-)
posted by quonsar at 7:47 PM on May 8, 2004

If I'd been here the past week I would have ruined that thread. Don't worry, we're not losing our touch.
posted by The God Complex at 8:45 AM on May 9, 2004

We did good

Yeah, I got a sinking feeling in my stomach when I saw a post on the front page that contained these three things: communism/college education as the subject, posted by 111, and 100+ comments. Together, those practicallly scream flaming trainwreck, so it was with some trepidation I began reading it, and I was pleasantly surprised with the relatively low level of bile and screaming. And I learned something, and I really enjoyed reading MzB's comment. Maybe we were all more relaxed because it was Saturday?
posted by deadcowdan at 10:20 AM on May 9, 2004

Hadn't read the thread until just now (and haven't gotten all the way through it yet), but it does in fact seem like a good conversation that somehow clawed its way out of rather inauspicious beginnings. You had a trollish post by 111, attempts to torpedo the thread by (many of) the first few commenters, and an image (the passive-aggressive's preferred way to take a dump in a thread) posted right at the start. Cheers to whoever rescued this shit from the fan.
posted by Hildago at 12:49 PM on May 9, 2004

what MayorCurley said.

either we think that communism is still relevant in today's world (and I don't think that the sane and the intelligent possibly can) or 111's is at least 70-75 years late. like, NewsFilter in reverse

the wall fell down, I hope you guys noticed that. there was a NewsFilter post about it in early MetaFilter fragments recently dug up at Nag Hammadi

but yes, if one is convinced that, say, communism is still relevant in, say, Lynndie England's America, well, then I guess 111's post is good
/sarcasm off
posted by matteo at 2:44 PM on May 9, 2004

namespan: Your shoutout is flattering, but it also led me to discover that I left out the source for my "capitalism is a prerequisite to socialism" quote. My bad.

For my part, I think the single most valuable thing said in that thread was from MzB: "History does not repeat itself; just the events are alike."
posted by skoosh at 4:07 PM on May 9, 2004

When I saw the thread and the first comments I thought it was going to be deleted. It was the perseverance of the others that encouraged me to post.

Regarding "History does not repeat itself; just the events are alike", I would like to know where it is coming from – I heard it from somebody else too. I usually use it to explain chaos / large events / power law distribution: over time, earthquakes (or stock market movements) look alike, but each time the causes are different.
posted by MzB at 6:44 PM on May 9, 2004

It reminds me of a quote I heard once but can't find anymore. It went something like: "History is like the surface of the sea: always changing, always the same."
posted by wobh at 7:20 PM on May 9, 2004

either we think that communism is still relevant in today's world (and I don't think that the sane and the intelligent possibly can)

Are you talking about communism or soviet communism? Dismissing communism as a whole because of what happened in Soviet Russia is akin to dismissing capitalist democracies because of what's happening in the United States.
posted by The God Complex at 11:01 PM on May 9, 2004

Are you talking about communism or soviet communism?

Heh heh heh. That's pretty rich. Is that something like:

Socialism or socialism?
posted by hama7 at 5:19 AM on May 10, 2004

You know, links to stormfront should really carry an NSFW tag. Just a thought ...
posted by thatwhichfalls at 5:51 AM on May 10, 2004

hama7, yer a real relic.
posted by quonsar at 6:35 AM on May 10, 2004

Well, upon catching up with the thread's comments, my first reaction naturally is : Sturgeon's Law is real. Except for hama's links and MzB's comment, I found little of interest in the whole thread.
Anyway, the real irony of it all is that many users, already brainwashed and blind after years of leftist indoctrination, simply ignored the data on the horrors of communism and repeated the mistakes pointed out by the book, that is, tried to justify the horrors of communism through minor details, like the aesthetics of soviet posters or delusional lies such as "Lenin was not as bad as Stalin". This is like being witness to a crime and, instead of condemning and denouncing the murderer, saying he was not as bad as some other murderer, or that he was a murderer but was wearing a really nice watch etc etc. It's too dumb.
Finally, I completely despise remarks such as "oh, it was a congenial, polite thread after all". It's the kind of comment made by geriatric hostesses after a reassuringly dull tea party. It has nothing to do with the a real discussion.
posted by 111 at 8:30 AM on May 10, 2004

ps: MzB, be careful with your quotes:
"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.'
Karl Marx
posted by 111 at 8:40 AM on May 10, 2004

My favorite parts were the bits where people say things like "that's not really communism." It the same kind of retreat that many christians have to make when confronted by atrocities committed by various christian individuals and organizations throughout the centuries. "That's not really Christianity." It's such a weak argument. I don't think George W. Bush is a real conservative Republican, and yet, there he is.
posted by wobh at 8:56 AM on May 10, 2004

This is like being witness to a crime and, instead of condemning and denouncing the murderer, saying he was not as bad as some other murderer, or that he was a murderer but was wearing a really nice watch etc etc. It's too dumb.

Sounds remarkably like those people who, upon hearing atrocities committed by the US military, compare it to Country X's actions in some other event, and say "Well, we're not as bad."

But you'd never do that, 111.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:08 AM on May 10, 2004

wobn, with the telling difference that the Christian canon openly opposes the taking of innocent lives (unlike Trotsky, Marx et caterva). Whereas Christianity has fully acknowledged the mistakes made in Its name, leftists to this day try to the overlook the horrible magnitude of the crimes committed in the name of communism, socialism etc. See "The Black Book of Communism".

five fresh fish, please refer to the book mentioned above. In a world full of conflict, communists and socialists remain the undisputed champions of murder, famine and misery ever. Unlike these bloody criminals, the USA owns up to these mistakes and apologizes. Unlike these fanatics, the USA defends the Rule of Law, not the dictatorship of some psychopath in the name of the proletariat...
posted by 111 at 9:17 AM on May 10, 2004

Not content to bash posters (innacurately and out of contect, natch) in the blue, are you 111? Nope, have to drag it on over here. Thanks, you're a real class act.
posted by mkultra at 9:18 AM on May 10, 2004

Not content to bash posters (innacurately and out of contect, natch) in the blue, are you 111?

Wrong again. I'm not bashing posters, I'm bashing the low quality of the comments. Would you rather have me join your lefty collective illusion fringe? Sorry, won't happen. BTW, did you bother to read the article and/or the interview before typing? Aren't you ashamed of your ludicrous "Lenin was nicer than Stalin" statement?
posted by 111 at 11:27 AM on May 10, 2004

BTW, did you bother to read the article and/or the interview before typing?

I did, though I'm beginning to wonder if you did, or you'd know that neither article really touches on Lenin.

Aren't you ashamed of your ludicrous "Lenin was nicer than Stalin" statement?

No. Are you ashamed at your ill-informed attacks? Languagehat, true to this post's point, actually responded to my point with a good article. Don't you think that's a better tactic than shitting on people who don't agree with you?

I have no desire to waste anyone else's time defending myself from your pointless assault. My email is on my profile page, if you feel the need.
posted by mkultra at 11:58 AM on May 10, 2004

When I look at what's going on in the world today, I can only say how appalled I am at the shameful fact that Universities continue to teach courses sympathetic to Jacobitism. What must we do to stop these traitors distorting the minds of our youth and putting a pretender on the throne?
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:00 PM on May 10, 2004

, I found little of interest in the whole thread.

huh?!, you like pancaking yourself 111?
posted by thomcatspike at 12:50 PM on May 10, 2004

I LOVE COMMUNISTS!!!!
posted by bargle at 1:21 PM on May 10, 2004

BTW, did you bother to read the article and/or the interview before typing?

I did, though I'm beginning to wonder if you did, or you'd know that neither article really touches on Lenin.

"Klehr: Jamie, I think your colleagues need the therapy far more than you do. In the slice of the historical world that we have discussed in our book, something very strange has occurred in the past thirty years.

Among historians of the Soviet Union there was a small but influential group of revisionists who attempted to "normalize" the Soviet regime. This involved a number of different tacks- some of them minimized the number of victims of Stalinism and Leninism or denied that there was any mass terror. Others deflected responsibility for terror away from Stalin and onto a bureaucratic process that spun out of control. And others apologized for the mass murders by claiming that they were necessary accompaniments to a process of modernization."
posted by 111 at 1:43 PM on May 10, 2004

And others apologized for the mass murders by claiming that they were necessary accompaniments to a process of modernization.

Some apology. Here's more from Doug Bandow:

"The Soviet Union was the greatest killing machine in history, slaughtering some 62 million people, according to Rummel. The number is incomprehensible. During the worst of Stalin's purges, the secret police set quotas.....surpassing the Nazis' Third Reich, was that of Mao Zedong. Rummel figures that the Chinese communists killed about 35 million people. Cambodia's Khmer Rouge wiped out an estimated 2 million; both the Vietnamese and North Korean regimes murdered about 1.7 million. Poland killed 1.6 million through extensive ethnic cleansing after World War II. At the same time (and in much the same way), Yugoslavia slaughtered some 1.1 million.

Lesser communist tyrannies also dotted Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe. In some of these slaughterhouses the dead numbered only in the hundreds of thousands and even tens of thousands -- indicating unusually mushy communism."
posted by hama7 at 2:25 PM on May 10, 2004

hama7 and eleventy-one fail to distinguish the point that wanting to end the worst abuses foisted on us by unfettered capitalism and extremists at the helm of the government is simply not the same thing as advocating communism. they live in a black and white reality, and vehemently deny the existence of any other hues.
posted by quonsar at 3:25 PM on May 10, 2004

checking for commeis under one's bed and general commie-bashing are so 1951.
but then, McCarthysim came back in fashion these last three years, didn't it.

q: make it "black and red reality"
posted by matteo at 4:08 PM on May 10, 2004

"checking for commies" of course, my bad.
I was busy checking for communists under my keyboard, hence the typo.
*resumes usual Pol-Pot worshiping*
posted by matteo at 4:10 PM on May 10, 2004

111: Finally, I completely despise remarks such as "oh, it was a congenial, polite thread after all".

Ah, go fuck yourself, and the inane anachronistic ideological asswipery you peddle.

There, feel better now? Give the people what they want, I say.

the USA defends the Rule of Law

What? That's the funniest thing I've seen you say in a long history of howlingly funny (if inadvertent) clunkers. Of course, parsing carefully, it may be said that the US defends the rule of law, while doing its damnedest to make sure that the rule of law does not in any way apply to it. No more rape rooms, indeed.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:54 PM on May 10, 2004

I'm not bashing posters, I'm bashing the low quality of the comments.

Wow. Filthy pot calls shiny chrome kettle black.
posted by riviera at 5:53 PM on May 10, 2004

Just use the schwarz 111.
posted by johnnyboy at 2:09 AM on May 11, 2004